Back in March, the US Environmental Protection Agency finalized a long-in-the-works rule requiring automakers to dramatically increase the number of battery-powered vehicles they’re putting on the roads. The government has mandated that by 2032 more than half of new cars sold in the US must be electric. There are some caveats, namely that plug-in hybrid cars will fulfill the federal requirements for what a “battery-powered” vehicle is.
This has led to a flood of hybrid cars hitting the market. This week, we talk about what this means for people who are considering buying a new car now or in the next few years. We explain the differences between plug-in hybrids, full hybrids, and electrics, and we tell you what your options are if you live in an apartment without a convenient place to plug in your car while it’s parked.
We are joined this week by WIRED staff writer Aarian Marshall, who breaks down the facts, shatters the myths, and turns us all into hybrid-car experts.
Show Notes
Read Aarian’s explainer on hybrid car technology, as well as her story about the new US emissions rules. Also read her story about automakers struggling to hit their US sales targets for electric cars.
Recommendations
Aarian recommends going to one of those baseball games where you also bring your dog. (They let you run the bases!) Mike recommends The New York Trilogy by novelist Paul Auster, who died this week at 77. Lauren recommends The Lights, the newest book of poetry and prose by Ben Lerner.
Aarian Marshall can be found on social media @aarianmarshall. Lauren Goode is @LaurenGoode. Michael Calore is @snackfight. Bling the main hotline at @GadgetLab. The show is produced by Boone Ashworth (@booneashworth). Our theme music is by Solar Keys.
How to Listen
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Transcript
Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.
Lauren Goode: Mike.
Michael Calore: Lauren.
Lauren Goode: What kind of car do you have?
Michael Calore: Is this a trick question?
Lauren Goode: Yes.
Michael Calore: I do not own a car.
Lauren Goode: Yes, I know that, but I really needed a lead-in to this podcast episode. OK, so the person who gives you a ride or loans you their car the most, what kind of car do they have?
Michael Calore: Is this also a trick question?
Lauren Goode: Yes.
Michael Calore: OK. That person is you, and the car that you loan me is a bit of a gas guzzler, but you’re such a good friend.
Lauren Goode: Thank you. OK, if you had to get a car right now, would you get an EV?
Michael Calore: Almost certainly. Either that or a hybrid, and I think I'm not alone, because I think a lot more people are going to have hybrids soon.
Lauren Goode: We should talk about this.
Michael Calore: Let's do it.
[Gadget Lab intro theme music plays]
Lauren Goode: Let's do it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Gadget Lab. I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a senior writer at WIRED.
Michael Calore: And I am Michael Calore. I am WIRED’s director of consumer tech and culture.
Lauren Goode: We're also joined this week by Aarian Marshall, a staff writer who covers transportation, cities, and Elon Musk here at WIRED. That's not Elon Musk here at WIRED. He's not here. It's just she covers all those things for us here at WIRED. Hey Aarian, thanks for joining us.
Aarian Marshall: Hello. If Elon Musk would like to come here to WIRED, that would be great. We would love to talk to him.
Lauren Goode: Oh, OK. We're putting the plea out there. Maybe we should put it on X. Is that what it's called now?
Michael Calore: I believe, yes.
Lauren Goode: OK, OK. All right, well, we're not talking about Twitter or X today. We're talking about hybrid cars today because, back in March, the US EPA finalized a long-in-the-works rule that requires carmakers here to dramatically increase the number of battery-powered vehicles they put out there. By 2032, more than half of new cars sold in the US must be electric cars. Now, since this ruling was long in the works, some key changes have been made to it over the past 18 months or so, namely that plug-in hybrid cars will fulfill those federal requirements for what a “battery-powered vehicle” is. So the flood of hybrids is coming, as you wrote Aarian, in WIRED recently. If anyone is thinking about buying a hybrid car, or if you're just curious about them, this podcast episode is for you. I'm going to start by keeping our acronym episode going, because those of you who listened to our acronym episode last week know that it went completely off the rails
Michael Calore: L-O-L.
Lauren Goode: L-O-L. So Aarian, what's the difference between an ICE and EV and a BEV car?
Aarian Marshall: Yes, so many acronyms, and it's so important to get them straight because this stuff is really confusing, and a lot of people use lots of different terms. So an ICE vehicle is a vehicle with an internal combustion engine that burns gas. That's like your regular old-school car that we've had for a hundred years. Then you have BEVs, which are also sometimes called EVs, confusingly, and these are your all-electric battery-powered vehicles. These are EVs, like the kind you hear about from Tesla, from Rivian, and increasingly from big, legacy automakers like Ford—they have a battery-powered truck, and they have a battery-powered Mustang—and General Motors. The place where it starts to get confusing is when you talk about hybrids. So there are actually a few different kinds of hybrids. There are things called HEVs, which are your standard hybrids that don't have a plug. So the way these work is they have both a gas engine and an electric motor. The electric motor is charged by the gas engine and by regenerative braking.
So that's kind of mostly a gas car, but you get some fuel savings there and some good climate benefits, to a degree. The big thing that's becoming much more popular these days are plug-in hybrids, PHEVs, for those who are still following along with the acronym game at home. These plug-in hybrids, spoiler alert, have a plug. These usually have smaller batteries than you'll see on your all-electric vehicles. Those smaller batteries can only take you so far, so usually somewhere between 20 and 50 miles before the car resorts to its gas engine. So that means that you could basically operate that as a totally electric car, if you're only driving pretty short distances. If you're driving longer distances, it can be a mix between an electric vehicle and a gas-powered car.
Michael Calore: So with a plug-in hybrid, is the engine and the regenerative braking also powering the battery, or is the battery filled entirely by you plugging it into the wall in your home?
Aarian Marshall: The former. So the regenerative braking is still working in the plug-in hybrid. It has both an electric motor and a gas engine, but it has a battery on board. Again, a smaller battery than you're going to see in an all-electric car, but a battery that is powering the motor at times.
Lauren Goode: Who are the biggest makers of plug-in hybrids?
Aarian Marshall: So the plug-in hybrid that I'd say people are most excited about is the Toyota Prius Prime that came out last year. It was kind of a total revamp of the Prius. One complaint that people have had about plug-in hybrids, historically, is that they're kind of poky. The Prius Prime does not have that issue. It's speedy. People are excited about it. Some other models that people are excited about: the Ford Escape plug-in hybrid, the Kia Niro plug-in hybrid, the Chrysler Pacifica hybrid, and the Subaru Crosstrek hybrid. Most of those are bigger vehicles aside from the Niro and the Prius. So you get lots of different options with plug-in hybrids right now, and automakers are making a lot of noise about building more of them in the future.
Michael Calore: Are plug-ins more expensive than non-plug-in hybrids?
Aarian Marshall: So yes, in general, plug-in hybrids are going to be more expensive than your standard hybrid. We actually got figures from the folks at Edmunds, which is an automotive research publication, and as of March 2024 the average transaction price for a plug-in hybrid was around a little over $60,000. The average transaction price for a hybrid was more like $43,000, so that's a pretty big difference. And then the average transaction price for an electric vehicle, the all-battery-powered cars, is the highest at around $63,000. So you kind of get more expensive as more battery comes into the mix.
Lauren Goode: This is not going to matter as much to some people, but what about the actual boost, like the turbo you get from the cars? I know Tesla, they're known for their zero-to-60 time in their, what is it, the Ludicrous mode? I have used the Ludicrous mode. It's quite fun.
Michael Calore: Yeah, sure.
Lauren Goode: What kind of oomph are you getting with something like a plug-in hybrid?
Aarian Marshall: Yeah, it's not going to be what you see in an EV. I'd say the people who are really hardcore about their driving and really want to go fast, I'd say first check the speed limit, people. I don't love to hear that people are going super-fast on public roads. But in general, they don't have that kind of quick moves that EVs do. But I think there are a lot of other reasons why people are excited about plug-in hybrids.
Lauren Goode: Right. To clarify, the only time I used Ludicrous mode was with a Tesla representative in the car. I was writing about the P100D, and she was like, “Oh, you have to try this now.”
Michael Calore: And you did it on a closed course with a professional.
Lauren Goode: It wasn't a closed course, but it was on a highway when no one was really around. It was just, like, we just got on the on-ramp, and she was like, "OK, push it."
Michael Calore: I trust you that you were safe.
Lauren Goode: Yes. I'm just heeding what Aarian said, which is true. You shouldn't just be speeding on public roads—
Michael Calore: That's true.
Lauren Goode: And endangering yourself and the people around you. OK. All right. Now that the PSA is over, what were you going to ask next?
Michael Calore: I wanted to ask about tax credits, because I know this has been a big deal for people making the switch to EVs. Are there any tax breaks involved in going hybrid?
Aarian Marshall: So the answer is yes. There are tax breaks that you're going to get for plug-in hybrids. They're not as much as you're going to get for the standard EVs. I'd also say this is highly dependent on where you live. So there are federal tax credits for both of them, but some states have more-aggressive EV and plug-in-hybrid tax breaks than we see on even the federal level. I know my state of Washington, where I live, they just set in motion a brand-new incentive program that's going to make it even cheaper for people to buy pure battery-electric cars. They get incentives from the federal government, then they get incentives from the state of Washington. So my squirrely answer is, it depends on where you are, and I'd urge you to contact your local tax representatives, tax experts to see what you can get for the vehicle that you want.
Lauren Goode: Do you drive an EV or a hybrid, Aarian?
Aarian Marshall: I drive a 2008 Prius, which is a hybrid technically, but some pretty old technology. But yes, yeah, I do.
Lauren Goode: Does it have the original battery in it?
Aarian Marshall: I think so. This is a great question that I should investigate. And the reason I don't know is because this is a car that has trickled through my partner's family for more than a decade at this point. I know that its catalytic converter was stolen about four times on the streets of Los Angeles, which is why we got it, because they decided it was not worth having in LA. So now we have it in Seattle, where I guess people don't steal them right now, which is really nice. Please don't steal our catalytic converter. But I'm not sure. That's a good question.
Lauren Goode: I'm actually really glad you brought that up, because that's exactly what I want to ask you about in the next segment. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come right back to that.
[Break]
Lauren Goode: We need to talk about catalytic converters, because it seems like every time I log on to Nextdoor, which is rare, or happen to read local news or happen to be talking to you on this podcast, Aarian, it's about catalytic converter theft. Is this just one of the baked-in potential downsides of owning a hybrid? And then I want to ask you about some of the other potential challenges too.
Aarian Marshall: Yeah, so this is definitely an issue that has been faced by a number of vehicle owners and particularly owners of the Toyota Prius for the last five years or so. I will say that there are some big solutions in the works which are really exciting. There are a number of states that have passed laws that require people that produce catalytic converters to actually put some specific identification on those converters so that if someone is selling a catalytic converter in the aftermarket and it has this inscription on it, that makes it very clear that this is a catalytic converter that did not come from a good source. It was stolen off of a car. The idea is that's going to really help break down these very-well-established crime rings that have these really well-oiled machines that have been able to take catalytic converters off the streets and then flip them to the aftermarket, either online or through kind of shady body shops.
So I wouldn't say that this is the price of doing business. I will also say that there have been some pretty good other aftermarket solutions. For example, we have a shield on our Prius that prevents people from stealing it. Prevents is maybe the wrong word; makes it harder. The goal for us is to not be the lowest-hanging fruit. We want someone to get under our car and say, "I have easier cars to steal somewhere down the line," because we have this big kind of metal shield. The other thing I'd say is that the critical minerals that make catalytic converters really attractive for thieves aren't in many of the newest cars. They're mostly targeting older catalytic converters. So this is still definitely a problem, but I think it's one that's kind of slowly on its way to being solved.
Lauren Goode: That sounds really encouraging. Did I ever tell you guys my favorite Nextdoor story about a catalytic converter theft?
Michael Calore: Oh, boy.
Lauren Goode: This is when I was living in Silicon Valley, and there was a woman in the neighborhood who posted that, one night, she heard loud noises coming from the park nearby, and she looked outside and she saw the thieves getting away with the catalytic converter from her Tesla. The commenters just had a field day, because this is in the heart of Silicon Valley. People were like, "You know the Tesla doesn't have a catalytic converter, right?" And someone wrote, "Ooh, did they also drain the gaming fluid out of your Xbox?" "Did you see Doc Brown running away to back to the future?" Yeah, it was pretty classic. So I don't know what happened there, if maybe she had a Prius and she was claiming she had a Tesla because it's nicer, it's status. I don't know. It was a very strange Nextdoor post.
Michael Calore: Yeah, I know a lot of people who just call every electric car a Tesla. It's like when I pull out my Pixel and they say, "Oh, you have Apple Pay?"
Lauren Goode: Oh, right.
Michael Calore: When I'm buying something and I want to tap to pay for it, they say, "Apple Pay?" And I just say, "Yeah, Apple Pay."
Lauren Goode: Yeah. I wonder how Elon Musk feels about that, that his car is basically the Kleenex of EVs.
Michael Calore: I'm sure he loves it.
Lauren Goode: I'm sure.
Michael Calore: We should ask him. Is he here?
Lauren Goode: We're making another plea, apparently, for him to talk to us and talk to Aarian at WIRED.
Michael Calore: OK, wait. I want to ask a question about plug-in hybrids, because if you're interested in buying one and you have a garage where you can plug the car in, that's fine. But what if you don't have a garage? What if you have to park on the street? Can you use a public charger? Can you use one of the Tesla Superchargers? What do people do if they don't own a place where they can plug it in?
Lauren Goode: Our apartment complex is starting to be more friendly to this too, because a lot of older apartment complexes don't have the infrastructure to support multiple people charging, right?
Aarian Marshall: Yeah. This is a great question and a great kind of asterisk on the good news story around plug-in hybrids. So a lot of people are really excited about them because they feel like kind of a gateway drug to EVs. They are nervous about going on long car trips and getting stuck somewhere without having access to a public charging station. So OK, I'm going to buy a plug-in-hybrid car. The bad news is this is not a great fit for you if you don't have access to a garage or a driveway or a charger. First of all, most plug-in hybrids on the market right now are not able to use public fast charging. So fast chargers are the ones that are being funded by all these federal and state grants. These include Tesla Superchargers. Most of those stations have fast chargers in them, and they're able to top up a car in somewhere between 15 to 30 minutes.
Those don't work for plug-in-hybrid vehicles, so they have to use the level-two chargers. The other cool thing is that you can actually just plug them into a wall, but that's not great if you don't have access to a wall where you live to plug them in. Many cities are working on putting chargers in on-street parking spots. So you'll see in parts of New York and Los Angeles, in a number of cities across the US and certainly in European cities, places where people can park their car overnight or park their car while they're doing their grocery shopping or their little errands and plug those in, in chargers that are right next to the street, kind of on the sidewalk. But those are slow, and those are going to take a really long time to charge up your vehicle. So it's still, again, really not a solution for people who live in apartment buildings and don't have access to a regular place where they can top up their car.
Michael Calore: OK. So there's this big push in the auto industry for plug-in hybrids. Customers are excited about them, automakers are excited about them, but what happened to the zero-emissions future? We were all promised that we would be all-electric and that we would have all ICE cars off the roads by a certain date. I mean, that's not going to happen, so what happened to it? Are hybrids like a half step? Are they a cop-out? Are they taking the easy route, or is this something that has to happen in order to get us to that zero-emissions future?
Aarian Marshall: Yeah, this is a great question, and I'd say reasonable people really disagree on this. There are some people who think that plug-in hybrids are a good kind of halfway step, a stop on the road getting to that fully electrified future. But there are plenty of other people who say, "No, that's not the way it's going to work. We're giving automakers an out by allowing plug-in hybrids to help them fulfill their federal electric vehicle sales requirements." This is actually kind of a bad move for the climate overall, because it doesn't get us to that zero-emissions target in the future. I will say that in a state like California, a plug-in hybrid is still not going to qualify for their big goal there, which is by 2035 totally eliminating sales of gas cars. California is still all-in on battery-electric cars. So it's kind of going to create, perhaps, this interesting situation where there are different markets in different states.
The other complicated thing about plug-in hybrids is that they're so dependent on how their individual users drive them. So if someone has a plug-in-hybrid car and they don't have access to charging or they simply just always forget to charge it overnight, they could just be using that plug-in as a gas car, just totally running it on gas, more-expensive gas cars, weird financial decision, but that's something that research has shown that plenty of people still do. So I think policymakers have to be really mindful about creating a system that's not only incentivizing people to buy the right sort of climate-friendly products but also to use them in a climate-friendly way. So I'll say it's complicated.
Lauren Goode: So Aarian, I asked you earlier about your car. You have a 2008 Prius. If you had to buy a new car right now, and you had to buy another hybrid, which one would you buy? Let's say budget is not a thought.
Aarian Marshall: I would definitely go with the Toyota Prius Prime. I have not driven this vehicle or actually spoken to a ton of people who have driven this vehicle, but based on what I've seen on the internet and car reviewers, including our car reviewer at WIRED, people are really excited about that car. I kind of like the way Priuses look. I know people don't necessarily feel that way, but I think they look fine. Toyota tends to make good, solid cars that are easy to get repaired if they need to be repaired, and that is something I really value as a driver. I'm all about utility over flash.
Michael Calore: So you wouldn't get the Lambo. Lauren said money's no object. You're not going to get the plug-in hybrid Lambo?
Aarian Marshall: That scares me. Also, I know money's no object, but where would I keep it so that people don't steal it? I guess I could have a garage. I don't ... Yeah, that seems complicated.
Michael Calore: Usually when you get a slip for your yacht, it comes with a parking spot.
Aarian Marshall: That's a good point.
Michael Calore: Yeah.
Lauren Goode: Huh. Would you get a Tesla?
Aarian Marshall: I don't know. Oh, this is a good question. I haven't really spent a lot of time. Yeah, I guess I would. We have our car in a parking garage. We have access to consistent charging, which is cool. We don't drive a lot. In fact, I personally barely drive. I'm a real passenger princess over here. I got my driver's license two years ago.
Lauren Goode: I was going to say, you grew up in New York City, so you have reasons.
Aarian Marshall: I did. I did. Thank you. Thank you for giving me an out.
Lauren Goode: Of course.
Aarian Marshall: But yeah, I think so. I think so. I don't know. I talk to Tesla owners who are obsessed with their cars, and I talk to Tesla owners who hate their cars, so it's hard. I'd have to do some research.
Lauren Goode: Yeah. I'm actually going to be renting one for a trip this summer because we're going to a place where we were concerned that all the cars were going to be stick shift and a Tesla was the non-stick-shift option. So we're just like, "OK, let's do it." So I'm going to get to play with one for a week or so.
Michael Calore: Yeah, you're going to have to learn that one-pedal driving, and you're going to have to learn how to put it into reverse, because that's a whole thing that you have to learn.
Lauren Goode: I mean, like I said, I've driven one before, but briefly. I don't remember any of that being a—wait, one pedal driving? I don't remember that.
Michael Calore: Yeah.
Lauren Goode: Is there one pedal in it? Oh wait, because there's … no.
Michael Calore: There's two pedals, but—
Lauren Goode: There's accelerate and brake.
Michael Calore: Yeah. When you pull your foot off the gas, it slows down and stops. It doesn't just coast. You can't coast.
Lauren Goode: OK, OK. But it's not just a singular pedal.
Michael Calore: No.
Lauren Goode: We don't want to give the people fake news in this podcast.
Michael Calore: No, no. But it's called One Pedal Driving. Aarian, back me up here.
Lauren Goode: Is that what it's—
Aarian Marshall: It's true. Basically, you don't need to use the brake, in theory.
Lauren Goode: OK.
Michael Calore: Although you should definitely use the brake Lauren, all the time.
Lauren Goode: Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'll come back with a Tesla. You never know. I could be a convert, and then you won't call me your friend with a gas guzzler.
Michael Calore: Oh yeah, you're right. I won't.
Lauren Goode: Next time you need a ride. All right, Aarian, this has been really fun but also truly informative. I've learned a lot, so thanks for that. Stick around though, because when we come back, we're going to do our recommendations. Aarian, as our Car Talk guest of honor, what's your recommendation?
[Break]
Aarian Marshall: So my recommendation this week is, I think this kind of the same as the last time I came on, but with a twist. So I think I recommended at some point going to a baseball game. I'd stick with that. But specifically, I'd like to recommend going to a baseball game with a dog. The Mariners, my local baseball team, have a number of Bark in the Park events during baseball season where you are allowed to bring a dog. Then critically, after the game, you line up and get to walk the bases with your dog, which is a great excuse for people who don't have children to run the bases. Adults, basically, who don't have children, to run the bases.
A number of Major League Baseball teams offer similar events throughout the year. Look up the one near you. It's just so delightful. A number of teams have special times in the middle of the game where they play The Lion King and you're supposed to hold your dog up like they're Simba in The Lion King. They also give you weird freebies. We got a collar once. We got one of those poop-bag holders once. It's just the greatest, and I love it.
Lauren Goode: And tell us your dog's name.
Aarian Marshall: My dog's name is Cosmo. He's a rescue scragglemuffin, neurotic guy, but he enjoys baseball games.
Michael Calore: Is he a plug-in hybrid or a full hybrid?
Aarian Marshall: He is powered off just straight chicken-flavored kibble. None of the above.
Lauren Goode: I really want to see photos of this. Can you Slack us photos of this afterwards, because this sounds wonderful.
Aarian Marshall: Oh my gosh, yes.
Lauren Goode: It is such a great recommendation. I look forward to the next time you join us in the show, just to hear how this is a buildable recommendation, what comes after this.
Aarian Marshall: Yeah. We'll see what kind of niche baseball events the future holds.
Lauren Goode: Thank you for that. Mike, what's your recommendation?
Michael Calore: I have sort of a melancholic recommendation this week, because the great American writer Paul Auster has died. He died this week in his late seventies, so I'm going to recommend one of his most famous and enduring works, which is called The New York Trilogy. It's a work of postmodern fiction. It's actually three books called City of Glass, Ghosts, and The Locked Room. The three books all came out in the mid-1990s, and they've all been collected into one volume, which you can find just about anywhere. It's really fun and weird and funny and depressing and all of the great things that you want out of a modern American novel. It, of course, all takes place in New York City. He's one of the great chroniclers of New York City, one of the great voices along with people like Lou Reed who show you sort of the underside of the city, the big city, and the people who populate it. So Paul Auster, I'm pouring one out for him and recommending The New York Trilogy.
Lauren Goode: Excellent recommendation.
Michael Calore: Thanks.
Lauren Goode: Thank you. I've never read his stuff.
Michael Calore: It's good. It's some fun, light summer reading. I'm joking. It's the opposite. It's heavy stuff, but it's really well done. I think you'll like it.
Lauren Goode: I'll add it to my Goodreads.
Michael Calore: Yes.
Lauren Goode: I think you're one of my two friends.
Michael Calore: I hit Fave all the time on your reviews. What's your recommendation?
Lauren Goode: Well, if you've been reading my Goodreads, you'd know that this is something I've been reading lately. It's The Lights by Ben Lerner. It's a book of poetry and prose that came out in 2023. Have you ever read Ben Lerner before?
Michael Calore: Sure. I read the one about the train state, the guy in Madrid.
Lauren Goode: Oh, I didn't read that one. I thought you were going to say you read the Hofmann Wobble, which was that story that came out in Harper's not long ago. That was really good.
Michael Calore: No, I don't read Harper's.
Lauren Goode: Oh.
Michael Calore: It's his first novel, the one about the guy who lives in Madrid.
Lauren Goode: OK. Well, yes, he is a novelist. He's also an essayist. He's a critic. Like I said, he writes for Harper's. He's won nearly every prestigious literary award. It's kind of crazy. But this book is mostly poetry, a little bit of prose. It's both powerful and digestible all at the same time. In some places, he invents characters for exposition. He writes about a writer's retreat. He writes about a sort of unintentionally erotic conversation with a therapist. He writes about parenting. And then, throughout the different poems, there are some recurring themes and words. There are a lot of lights, of course, because it's called The Lights. There's also the paranormal, glass, and then some sort of meta media flowings about where does a song come from and is it spoken first or is it a song first?
Michael Calore: Wow.
Lauren Goode: Yeah, it's pretty heavy stuff, but I am really enjoying this book at night, so I recommend The Lights by Ben Lerner.
Michael Calore: Deep.
Lauren Goode: Yeah. All right, we both made literary recommendations.
Michael Calore: How about that?
Lauren Goode: Look at us.
Michael Calore: And baseball.
Lauren Goode: And you know what? America's favorite pastime and puppies. I think this was a really well-rounded recommendation segment.
Aarian Marshall: Can't go wrong.
Lauren Goode: Can't go wrong. Thank you, Aarian. All right, that's our show. But truly, thank you Aarian, thank you for joining us. This was really great.
Aarian Marshall: Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.
Lauren Goode: And thanks to all of you for listening. If you have feedback, you can find all of us on Twitter. Yes, we're still on Twitter. Just check the show notes. We also love your reviews. We've been reading them lately on Apple Podcasts, so leave us a review. Our producer is the excellent Boone Ashworth. Goodbye for now. We'll be back next week.
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